Perhaps the most debated question among Evangelicals who are Futurists, is the question about the rapture of the church. The word “rapture,” while not actually found in scripture, refers to the event when Jesus Christ comes back as He promised, and takes His church out of this world, before He begins to pour out His judgment on the unsaved, unbelieving world.
The most popular or prevailing view would seem to be what is known as the Pretribulation Rapture view. The term “Pretribulation” refers to the understanding that there is going to be a seven-year period before Jesus comes back to earth, during which time there will be a period of great tribulation for the earth dwellers. There will be various forms of natural, eventually cataclysmic disasters, including catastrophic cosmic events described as stars falling to the earth. There will be widespread economic distress, famine, disease, and warfare on an unprecedented scale. The Bible tells us that Satan will be unleashed, and will empower his agents to gain control and rule over the whole earth. This is the Tribulation Period. The popular view, understandably, is that those of us who are believers and followers of Christ – the church – will be taken out before all this bad stuff begins to happen. One of the main arguments is that God would not allow His own people to go through such a horrible time – it is only for unbelievers, and His nation Israel who have rejected Christ.
This view involves and is based on a number of assumptions, and interpretations of words and passages of scripture, that are at best debatable. These will not be discussed in this article, but some in following articles on the subject. However, there are other competing views about when this rapture event is going to occur. Some believe it will be at the mid-point of that Tribulation Period (“Midtrib”), after the first 3 1/2 years. Others believe it won’t happen until the end of that Tribulation Period (“Posttrib”), after God pours out His judgment on the whole earth. Then there are those who believe there will be a partial rapture before the Tribulation Period begins (for the worthy followers of Christ), and another rapture later for those who need the testing and purification of their faith. Some of those believe that the second rapture will be before God pours out His wrath, which happens in the last half of the seven-year period. And finally a view which is gaining a lot of attention and appreciation in recent times is the Pre-Wrath Rapture view.
There are good arguments made for each of these views which is why they all have their adherents. If one reads the arguments for each view one after the other, they may find themselves jumping from one to the next as each may seen quite convincing. However, the differences between them seem to have to do in part with the presuppositions of those who hold them, and in part with how they interpret the same scripture passages. Probably at least as important is which passages they do look at or emphasize, and take literally, and which ones they overlook or explain away.
While each of these views may be addressed in later articles, it may be more beneficial to the reader to go to scripture and try to let the scripture speak. This will involve some comparisons to another view, and since the Pretribulation Rapture view is the most popular it is the most likely candidate for such comparisons. However, being consistent with our professed approach of looking to the source document, the Bible, interpreting it literally (i.e. taking its natural sense given accurate exegesis), and letting scripture interpret scripture, we find the Bible is actually quite clear as to when this rapture event will occur:
“21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. … 29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.” (Matthew 24:21-31)
“1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)
“16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 5 1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, ‘Peace and safety!’ then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.” (1Thessalonians 4:16 – 5:10)
“51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
“15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.’ 16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying, ‘We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.’ 19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.” (Revelation 11:15-19)
Now if the honest truth seeker were to just go to scripture alone, and were to only go so far as the first gospel of Matthew, and the first primary passage specifically dealing with this issue of the rapture, it would actually be enough to answer that most prominent question about the rapture. First, it tells us clearly that there will be a future coming of Christ, and there will be a rapture, a gathering together of the “elect”, when Christ returns. Not only that, but Jesus answers the question, which is the subject of so much controversy (and confusion) in the church today, about when that rapture will happen. His answer, “immediately after the tribulation of those days”, clearly referring to that tribulation period which He has just described in the preceding 26 verses, which we now refer to as the “7-year Tribulation Period”. But then He also gives us several other significant indications, which we have to go to other related passages to learn the meaning of.
First, He identifies that Rapture event with the cosmic sign events affecting the sun, moon and stars, which we know from other passages such as Joel 2:30-31 (and over 20 other passages) is about “the day of the Lord”. Second, He associates this Rapture event with “a great trumpet”, which again we know from other passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Revelation 11:15-19 refers to the second coming of Christ.
But, because men have come up with very non-literal interpretations based on their doctrinal presuppositions and predetermined theories about the timing of the Rapture, many have been led to believe that this whole passage in Matthew is not about the rapture of the church – in fact they tell us that “the church is not in Matthew 24”, and the “elect” being raptured there is not the church at all. While they have no accurately interpreted scripture which tell us this, they rely on their presupposed doctrines and their theories, which themselves are not actually supported by literal scripture, and are at best matters of controversy and debate.
These doctrinal presuppositions giving rise to their theories are somewhat involved and are thus the subject of another article entitled “the Doctrinal Presuppositions of Dispensationalism and the Pre-tribulation Rapture Theory”. Briefly summarized, since the mid-19th century men have developed a version of Systematic Theology, and Eschatology in particular, known as “Dispensationalism”, which overturned the mainstream schools of the previous 1500+ years of church history. For the most part Dispensationalism is based on a more literal approach to interpreting scripture, as opposed to the allegorical approach used going back to St. Augustine. It involves a clear distinction being made between Israel and the Church, and what they call God’s program for Israel versus God’s dealing with the Church, much of which is supported by literal scripture. But it goes beyond what is stated in scripture to add that these differences mean that the Tribulation Period is only for Israel and the church cannot be in the Tribulation. This latter is not supported by any accurately interpreted literal scripture, though they find ways to interpret all the related passages such that they agree with their presuppositions and ensuing conclusion, which is that there will be a Pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.
However, even if one is prone to be persuaded by those extra-biblical arguments about Matthew 24, we have the next related passage which is as explicitly clear if not even more so on this very controversial subject:
“1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)
Paul writes to the Thessalonians that the same event, Christ’s coming and our being gathered to Him, won’t happen until after the “man of lawlessness” appears (v.3 above), who most Bible scholars recognize as the “Antichrist”. Furthermore, that “day of the Lord” Rapture won’t happen until this Antichrist sets himself up in the temple of God as being God. Most, if not all futurists recognize this as the “abomination of desolation” event prophesied by Daniel (Daniel 9:27, 11:31) and Jesus (Matthew 24:15), which they also know marks the middle of the Tribulation Period (Revelation 11).
It is a little difficult to see how anyone can miss the point of this very clear passage – if they are just taking it literally, letting it speak for itself. In this case there is little argument about the first verse among those who believe in a future rapture of the church (the “Futurists”) – that it is about the Rapture of the church (not just Tribulation Saints as is argued about Matthew 24). But the distortions begin with the second verse, which begins with an interpretation that ignores the first verse in which Paul has made the rapture of the church the subject discussed in the following verses. According to that errant interpretation, Paul changes his subject of discussion from the Rapture of the Church in the 1st verse to the “day of the Lord” in the second verse, which according to their definition is a very different subject. This then involves the next distortion of adopting a definition of “the day of the Lord” which is foreign to how it is used in all the rest of scripture. To make all those “day of the Lord” passages fit in with their view they have defined it as the whole Tribulation Period, and many define it as 1007 years to include the whole Millennial reign of Christ on earth which follows the 7-year Tribulation Period.
By this point, the possibly sincere but somewhat gullible disciple, who wants to believe in them and what they are saying (perhaps because it is mainstream and more pleasing to hear and believe) is fooled by a combination of several recognizable tricks of intellectually dishonest argumentation, such as “red herring”, “equivocation” or even “bait and switch” fallacies. First it is pretended that the “rapture of the church” changes into “the day of the Lord”, which then becomes the whole Tribulation Period (at least). Thus, according to that reasoning, the passage is actually addressing what will happen during that Tribulation Period, instead of when the rapture will occur. Then, again according to their very convoluted line of reasoning, Paul is not really telling us here when the Rapture of the Church will happen (as one would think from the first introductory verse), but when the whole Tribulation Period will happen (their definition of “the day of the Lord”). But for the less naïve truth seeker, who isn’t committed to just believing whatever they say it means, this interpretation may not make any sense at all. According to their interpretation, when Paul writes “it will not happen” he is saying that the Tribulation Period will not happen, since they tell us the subject has changed to “the day of the Lord”, and that “day of the Lord” is actually the whole 7-year Tribulation Period (and to most the 1000-year Millennium included). Thus, according to them, the Tribulation Period (“the day of the Lord”) can’t happen until after the “man of Lawlessness is revealed”, which they also identify is the Antichrist. But not only does he have to be revealed, but he “sets himself up in the temple of God displaying himself as being God”. But even they recognize this as the ‘abomination of desolation” event prophesied by Daniel (9:27 and 11:31) and Jesus (Matthew 24:15), which they also recognize happens at the midpoint of that Tribulation Period.
This means that what they are saying to interpret this key passage is that the whole Tribulation Period can’t happen until at least the midpoint of that very same Tribulation Period. The slightly discerning student of scripture who is able to follow their convoluted logic, will of course see the contradiction, and hopefully just go back to letting the passage speak for itself, without the blinders of those Dispensational doctrinal presuppositions forcing such a self-contradictory interpretation.
To the discerning, thinking truth-seeker a pattern may be emerging here in the popular Pre-tribulation Rapture advocates interpretations of both of these key passages on this subject. According to their interpretation of Matthew 24 Jesus never really addresses this key question about the timing of the rapture of the church, anywhere. Furthermore, according to them, even though Paul begins with addressing that subject explicitly in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, he never answers or even addresses that question in the rest of the passage. Should this not raise some serious questions about their interpretations of both passages, and in turn their presuppositions and theory driving those interpretations?
Furthermore, if these two key passages don’t address this key question which is the centerpiece of their doctrine and theories, what passages would they say actually do answer that question about when the rapture of the church will happen? Many, if not most Pre-tribulation Rapturists will direct us to the following: John 14:1-4, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 5:9, 2Thessalonians 2:7 and Revelation 3:10. These are all discussed in a companion article “Proof Texts for the Pretribulation Rapture view Examined”, but briefly, two of these don’t address the question of the timing of the rapture at all (John 14:1-4 and 1 Thess. 4:16-17 taken out of context), three of them when taken in context do not support a Pre-tribulation Rapture at all (1 Thess. 4:16-17 & 5:9 and 2 Thess. 2:7), and at least two require very incorrect exegesis of the words used to be forced to support that view (2 Thess. 2:7 and Revelation 3:10).
However, there is another passage or combination of passages which actually teach a Pre-wrath Post-tribulation Rapture, instead of a Pre-tribulation Rapture, one of those being ironically among the proof text often cited for that PTR view. They are as follows:
“16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.” (1Thessalonians 4:16-5:3)
“51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
“15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.’ 16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying, ‘We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.’ 19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.” (Revelation 11:15-19)
When the proof text of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is kept in its context of the following verses including 5:1-3, we see that the timing of this rapture of the church is clearly designated as occurring at the “day of the Lord”, “thief in the night” event, when “destruction comes upon them suddenly” (5:3). The latter – unlike the previous verses 4:16-17 taken out of context – cannot be mistaken for an early pre-tribulation rapture, but is clearly and explicitly about a post-tribulation albeit pre-wrath rapture.
Paul also tells us in this 1 Thessalonians 4 passage that the rapture of those who are alive will not happen until the resurrection of those who are dead happens (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). Then he tells us that the resurrection of the dead will happen at the “last trumpet” (1Corinthians 15:51-52 cited above). Then we see in Revelation 11:15-19 that when the last of the seven angels with the trumpets sounds his trumpet, both the “prophets” (usually understood as the Old Testament saints), and the “saints” (the term used for the New Testament church) are given their rewards. From other passages of scripture we know this as “the judgment seat of Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:10), which happens immediately following the resurrection and rapture of all the saved believers (even according to the PTR interpretations). We also see that this seventh and last trumpet is the point at which Christ returns to earth, when He returns to judge those left on the earth – i.e. the day of wrath, or the outpouring of God’s wrath. It is also when He comes to set up His kingdom on this earth. This is what is known as “the second coming of Christ” and it is what scripture refers to as “the day of the Lord”.
But here again we see another distortion to try to evade the very clear indication from letting scripture interpret scripture, as to when this resurrection/rapture is to occur. The PTR adherents tell us we shouldn’t let this Revelation passage about the Trumpets, and in particular the last or 7th trumpet, interpret the 1 Corinthians 15:52 passage referring to “the last trumpet”. Thus, instead of going to the passage dealing with the same subject, the future resurrection of the saved in the end times, some tell us we should go to an unrelated passage, or passages, about the use of the trumpets in the Old Testament, or in Jewish tradition (the four shofars of the feast of trumpets), or even the use of trumpets in today’s military. Even then they engage in cherry picking, such as the appeal to the two trumpets of Numbers 10, as opposed to the 7 trumpets of Joshua 6:1-5, which might actually be taken as a type or foreshadowing of the “day of the Lord” last trumpet, the 7th trumpet of Revelation. This again is a very common logic fallacy of “cherry picking” and a violation of rules of interpretation (called “Hermeneutics”).
However, those who have been indoctrinated with the PTR presuppositions cannot allow the passage in Revelation 11 cited above to be about the rapture/resurrection of the church. They have been taught that “the church is not in Revelation” after chapter 4, until it shows up again in chapter 19 (similar to what they do with Matthew 24 to counter its very clear teaching about the timing of the rapture). Their rationale for this very essential piece of their interpretations is articulated in the following:
“The absence of any mention of the Church in the rest of Revelation indicates that it is not on the earth during the Tribulation. There are sixteen references to the Church in Revelation 1-3, whereas chapters 6-18, which cover the Tribulation, do not mention the Church once. The natural conclusion drawn from this is that the Church that was so prominent during its two thousand-year history (as predicted in chapters 2-3) is not mentioned in chapters 4-18 because those chapters describe the Tribulation, which the Church does not endure.” (LaHaye, Revelation Unveiled, p. 100)
“The word church, so prominent in chapters 2 and 3, does not occur again until 22:16, though the church is undoubtedly in view as the wife pf the Lamb in Revelation 19:7. She is not a participant in the scenes of the tribulation which form the major content of the book of Revelation. The familiar phrase ‘what the Spirit saith unto the churches’ found in 2:7,11, 17, 29, 3:6, 13, 22 is significantly absent in 13:9.
It seems that the church as the Body of Christ is out of the picture, and saints who come to know the Lord in this period are described as saved Israelites or save Gentiles, never by terms which are characteristic of the church, the Body of Christ.” (Walvoord, The Revelation of Jesus Christ, p. 103)
The valid element of this argument to support this contention that the church is not in Revelation 4-18 is the fact that the Greek word translated “church” does not appear in that part of the book. However, it also does not appear again after the third chapter until the last chapter in 22:16 – not even in the 19th thru the 21st chapters where the same men would insist the church does appear even though the word for “church” (ekklesia) does not appear there either. This would seem to be a most disingenuous argument inasmuch as the word church does not appear in 8 of the New Testament books, nor in the Gospels of Mark, Luke or John, or in 1 John or 2 John or 1 Peter or 2 Peter or Jude. Surely no one would even suggest that the church is not in these other New Testament books because the Greek word translated “church” does not appear there. Jude uses the word “saints” to refer to the church, which appears 12 times in the part of Revelation where we are told the church does not appear. The fact of the matter is that John doesn’t use the word “church” in any of his works, except in 3rd John and Revelation. For that matter he doesn’t use either word, “church” or “saints” to refer to saved believers in his other works (the Gospel of John and the three epistles) but his descriptions match exactly what we see in Revelation – those who confess Jesus is the Son of God and who obey His commandments and overcome by faith (1 John 3:24 & 4:15 & 5:4-5). It would be far more honest and accurate to acknowledge that John didn’t really use this word to refer to the body of Christ, except when he was referring to specific local assemblies as in the 2nd and 3rd chapters of this book of Revelation and in 3rd John 6. In most cases throughout the Bible where the word is used it is used to refer to specific “assemblies” of believers, or what should be going on in those assemblies when they are gathered together. When referring to the “church” in general, the body of believers, other words are normally used throughout scripture- such as “saints,” “the bride,” and “the elect.” Hence the fact that it is not used much in Revelation is certainly no indication that the church is not there, any more than in any other book. This is simply a perfect example of the kind of intellectually dishonest manipulations to which men resort when they are trying to force interpretations of scripture to fit presuppositions and preconceived theories or doctrinal positions. Indeed, there is nothing in scripture when translated accurately and interpreted literally, taking the most natural and obvious meaning of the text in light of its context, which suggests that the church in Revelation is anything other than “the Church.” Only the presupposition that the Church has to be raptured out before the events prophesied in the book begin to occur would lead one to the notion that the Church in Revelation is not really “the Church,” the “elect,” the “bride of Christ,” as it is in any other book of the New Testament. But for one to hold to that preconceived belief it is necessary to explain away all the appearances of the church in the rest of the book – no matter how forced such interpretations may be.
Furthermore, if one examines Walvoord’s arguments one should notice several discrepancies, or untrue allegations. He tells his readers that the church is not in Revelation 13, and 13:9 in particular, yet when we just read that chapter we find “the saints” mentioned twice:
“ 7It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority was given to him over every tribe, people, language, and nation. 8All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered. 9If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.” (Revelation 13:7-10)
This word “saints” appears 67 times in the Bible, 60 times in the New Testament, and 11 times in this part of Revelation (4-19) where we are told the church does not appear. In any and all of the 60 occurrences in the New Testament it is about what is also called “the church”, but unlike the Greek word ekklesia translated church, it is about those who make up the church. However, no real Bible scholar would argue that in the 49 occurrences outside this book of Revelation it is not referring to the church – i.e., the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, or the “elect”. Just as they do with the word “elect” in Matthew 24:31, they come up with a different definition of the word “saints” here in this part of Revelation to make it fit their hypothetical view. The only reason to argue that the saints here are not the church on the earth at that time is the presupposition that the church is not in this part of Revelation which is assuming all the other doctrinal presuppositions are also true, which is circular reasoning (the proof of our theory is our theory). Walvoord is citing this passage as proof of his theory, or a premise of his theory, which depends entirely upon accepting a priori that this premise and thus this theory is true – also called “arguing from one’s premise”.
But then we could go on to the next part of his argument: “…saints who come to know the Lord in this period are described as saved Israelites or saved Gentiles, never by terms which are characteristic of the church, the Body of Christ.”
Do we see anything in these passages cited above which identify these saints as being saved Israelites or saved Gentiles? We do see the reference to “every tribe, people, language, and nation”, but nothing saying Jewish saints, or Gentile saints. But we do see them defined as those who are characterized by “perseverance” and “faith”. Are these not definitive terms used elsewhere to refer to the true church which will ultimately be saved, as in those earlier 2nd and 3rd chapters of this book, which he recognizes as referring to the church (such as one of their proof texts, Revelation 3:10)? Or, where do we see any such distinction made in Revelation 54:8, 8:3-4, 11:18, 14:12, 16:6, 17:6, 18:20, or 18: 24, where this descriptive title for Christ’s true followers is used? And on what basis can it be argued then that the church reappears in 19-21 since the word “church” doesn’t appear there either, where instead we see the word “saints”, but suddenly there it is the church again, according to them?
Such a distinction is not coming from exegesis of actual scripture, but only from the eisegesis of this man’s interpretation driven by his extra-biblical doctrinal presuppositions. While perhaps his conscious intentions should not be impugned, his methods are very lacking in intellectual integrity – he should know better, but he is blinded by his commitment to his presuppositions (just like most of those he argues against).
All of this is to get to another passage in Revelation which indeed is clearly about the church, and if allowed to speak for itself gives us more information about the timing of the rapture of the church. That is as follows:
“9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.’ 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.’ 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?’ 14 I said to him, ‘My lord, you know.’ And he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.” (Revelation 7:9-17)
For those who miss the almost subtle reference to the implicit rapture/resurrection in the eleventh chapter, it is hard to miss it in the seventh chapter. There it is clear that what is being described is after the saints who are in “white robes” have been gathered together into the presence of God. This is unmistakably the scene in heaven after the rapture and the resurrection. As if to leave no doubt, John asks the question, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” The answer couldn’t be much clearer: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, ...” He didn’t say they are the ones who have been delivered from going through the great tribulation – as per the Pretribulation Rapture view (and their forced interpretation of Revelation 3:10). There is no indication that this is only part of the resurrected and raptured church – only those who were “left behind” and came to Christ during the Tribulation Period. Such views are entirely extra-biblical – no explicit scripture to support such interpretations, only forced interpretations based on presuppositions and heavy doses of circular reasoning.
The timing of the scene in Revelation seven is instructive in itself. It appears after the sixth Seal, but before the mention of the seventh Seal, which is only described as “silence in heaven“. That phrase means what it says, and only means what it says. It means the cataclysmic judgments of the first six seals of chapter 6 is over, and what John is seeing in that last half of the 7th chapter is the heavenly scene. The “silence in heaven” would be a very misleading misnomer for their interpretation, that it is referring to the ensuing 7 Trumpets which in turn includes the 7 Bowls. This is just another artifact of their PTR view, as they fail to see the pattern in Revelation that what is presented is not all sequential, as in the Seals followed by the Trumpets followed by the Bowls – though they do have to recognize that the sixth Seal and the seventh Trumpet and the seventh Bowl are about the same final cataclysmic event at the second coming of Christ. (This is explained in detail in the book by this author, The Mysteries of Revelation Demystified (available on Amazon), and these Seals and Trumpets and Bowls are discussed in following articles, and in the book by this author “The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation Revisited“, also available on Amazon).
If we just go by what is actually written here in the inspired text , it seems to be telling us here that the scene in heaven when we are all gathered to be in God’s presence (in heaven) doesn’t occur until the events of the first six Seals have mostly run their course. This would certainly not be Pre-tribulational, nor Mid-tribulational. While Drs. Walvoord and LaHaye insist that these are just “tribulation saints”, which are raptured at the hypothetical second rapture – the one at the end of the Tribulation Period as opposed to the rapture of the church before that Tribulation Period – the discerning truth-seeker would and should ask, where do we find that in this passage, or any other related passage? The honest answer is, “you don’t, unless you apply the Dispensational PTR presuppositions to all of them”.
So again, we find the church, the rapture and the resurrection right where we would expect them to be in light of all the other passages on the subject, after the first six Seals, and the first six Trumpets, at the 7the Trumpet second coming of Christ (Revelation 11:15-19), the beginning of the “day of the Lord”. Furthermore, these coincide with the 7th Bowl where we see the return of Christ, like a thief in the night (Revelation 16:15), just before the final Battle of HarMagedon. This is unmistakably Post-tribulational and Pre-wrath, unless one just finds ways to disqualify all of them, which sadly is what men do.
Finally, we see that Peter is exhorting us – those of us living in this church age – to be watching expectantly and living differently in light of that “day of the Lord” event (see article on “Key Words” for definition of “the day of the Lord“), when Christ returns:
“10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and [b]its works will be [c]burned up.11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation;…” (2 Peter 3:10-14)
It is described by Peter as the day when all the earth, and even the heavens will be destroyed “by burning” and “intense heat” (2 Peter 3:12). It is also the time when Peter says the new heaven and earth will be created. Clearly this is not before the Tribulation Period begins, or even at the mid-point of the Tribulation Period. It does tell us that this event will be the “thief in the night” (from which the PTR advocates get their doctrine of imminence”), also called “the day of the Lord”, and relating it to our “salvation”. He then tells us “since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless”. It would make no sense, or would be very deceitful and misleading, for God to be telling us to be looking for and expecting and living in light of that future “day of the Lord” event, if none of us will even be here when that event occurs. Or would the PTR advocates try to tell us that the church is not in 2 Peter, and this passage is only for and about the Tribulation Period saints, not the church (as they try to enlighten us about Matthew 24 and Revelation 5-18)? How should we be motivated or encouraged by this second coming of Christ event, if we will already be raptured out and in heaven long before it even happens? Perhaps what Peter writes coincides with what Jesus said (per Matthew and Luke), and Paul wrote, and John tells us in Revelation – the resurrection and the rapture will happen when Christ returns (the second coming) – at the much prophesied “day of the Lord“. That could only be at the end of that whole Tribulation Period, but before He begins to pour out His wrath.
For excellent articles on this subject by another author go to http://post-triborpre-trib.blogspot.com/
end times revisited 